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Post by aussieinusa on Feb 16, 2013 12:13:57 GMT 7
I've spent roughly two of the last five years in the USA. I was on DSP for some of that time, but always had it cut off after 13 weeks, as per usual portability rules.
Now I find out that there's an International Social Security Agreement between the USA and Australia, and severely disabled DSP recipients are entitled to ongoing payment while they live there, and 13 weeks' (well, 6 weeks with new laws, but 13 then) if they go to a third country. Guess what I am? For some reason, C/L never bothered to mention this agreement exists.
Is there a statute of limitation on a compensation claim due to C/L providing wrong information? (The wording on their web site is, "defective administration", through "an unreasonable failure to give proper advice, or giving incorrect or ambiguous advice.")
And if anyone on the boards has been through something similar, I'd really appreciate any advice on going after the false-info-providing jerks. Thank you!
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Post by Banjo on Feb 16, 2013 12:24:45 GMT 7
Welcome to the board Aussieinusa.
Are you considered severely disabled under the old Act and therefore grandfathered? If not you have to undergo a new assessment to be designated severely disabled and receive Unlimited Portability.
The international agreements have been around for a while, Centrelink may have been remiss in not telling you about them in which case you may have cause for a complaint.
Give Welfare Rights a ring in your home state, they may have some advice for you, also your federal MP could be a start.
It may be possible to get your application to be under the International Agreement with the USA back dated and lost payments made up, I think you may need to be lucky though.
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Post by aussieinusa on Feb 16, 2013 13:20:22 GMT 7
Thanks for your reply, Banjo. I'm not grandfathered; I only became disabled around 2003, and haven't been on DSP the whole time.
(I'm an idiot; I've gone off payments a couple of times when I could pay my own way because I'd rather be independent... as everyone on here would well know, that doesn't result in a pat on the back and a 'thanks for not claiming payments for a while' from Centrelink; instead, they make you jump through a million hoops to prove your incurable medical issues haven't magically cured themselves... I wish! I won't make the mistake of going off payments again unless I'm certain it's permanent, because all the hassle of re-applying invariably comes at the worst possible times... and because despite what they say, each time you have to re-apply does mean focusing on everything you can't do for a while, when I really do prefer to focus on what I can do and make the most of it.)
I just looked it up the the USA Int'l Agreement was signed on 20/09/2001, so it was in effect the whole time I was in the USA.
I'll give Welfare Rights a call and see what they say about it... wish me luck; sounds like I'll need it.
I really hope that the law and/or policy isn't, "if we tell you the wrong thing so you don't get payments for ages because we said you were ineligible, then you're out of luck because you didn't know we misled you so you waited too long to put in an appeal"... but after getting caught up in this whole 'OMG people take Australian money overseas!!' witchhunt, because I dared use my own money to spend time somewhere I had a better chance of getting paid work, I'm even more cynical about the welfare system now. It really is a full-time job, dealing with C/L and making sure they're not screwing you... how are we supposed to keep up with that, and work on our own rehab/back-to-work plans too, when we're only able to work a few hours a week at most??
All this indignation about 'spending taxpayers' money in other countries'... before I became too disabled to work, I was a taxpayer, and a high-income-earning one who willingly paid correct tax, even. I thought my taxes were like an insurance policy; give the government money when you can work, to pay for them to provide a safety net when you can't. Ha! That social contract seems to be going out the window, replaced by, "you're all a bunch of bludgers, you don't deserve a cent."
On the worst day ever at work, it was still way better than the average interaction with C/L staff. There is no way I would put up with them if I was well enough to work.
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Post by Banjo on Feb 16, 2013 14:35:49 GMT 7
We've dealt with the "money going overseas" argument here in detail, basically there is about three times comes into the country with foreign pensioners than our pensioners take overseas. If money has conditions attached to it then it becomes like food stamps, the fact is that the government would rather us spend our pensions on high taxed activities like smoking, drinking and gambling than make a worth while contribution to an overseas economy, particularly in third world countries. (To which status the USA must be getting close. )
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Post by aussieinusa on Feb 16, 2013 15:04:35 GMT 7
Wow, I didn't know the figure was quite so high. So overall, Australia is well and truly the beneficiary of international pension portability schemes... and the government is setting a precedent of cutting them off, which other countries' politicians will no doubt watch with interest and possibly copy (as they often do, for example the UK copying our income management 'innovations' imposed on welfare recipients). That totally seems like it's in Australia's long-term economic interest; not at all a politically expedient move to further restrict what people with disabilities can do. (Sarcasm.)
(I get very annoyed with all of this; in my day-to-day life, I encounter a lot of people whose attitude is, "stay at home in bed where you belong, disabled people." To get it from the government departments that also score political points saying they'll get us back out into the world is too much.)
And I know that comment was at least partly in jest, but yes, there are many people who do live in basically third world conditions in the USA. I personally know many Americans who can't afford healthy food and basic medical care; with huge student debts for a generalist degree from a very ordinary university; who struggle to pay for housing and transportation, paycheck-to-paycheck. Low minimum wage means most consumer goods are way cheaper there, but it also means there are many people who have to work three jobs simply to support themselves.
C/L certainly makes our lives tough at times, but it's no match for the American system, where ideas about a society having an obligation to help those who have it toughest aren't part of the social makeup, and they've reverted to a near-feudal system of the rich exploiting everyone else with impunity. It's only sustainable because the poor have to work so hard to survive, they're too exhausted to overthrow their lazy venal overlords.
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Post by baranghope on Feb 16, 2013 17:11:43 GMT 7
I have dual nationality and could be subject to an International Agreement between Oz and Canada . . . if I had been intelligent enough to take it up a couple of years ago I could have lived in Canada with the full Oz DSP . . . and thereby resided in a place with far less residency, and zero travel restrictions than Oz now has. For me to apply now from Oz I would have to undergo basically the same Med Review/JCA insanity on this end, and CL were kind enough to tell me they NOW DEMAND a "Certificate of Residency" from offshore Agreement countries as proof that their stray convict is not truly emancipated via an offshore gateway. A nightmare of hoops and restrictions.
My advice, go directly after their failure to inform you about the joint SS Agreement back then. Just that. Otherwise, I am afraid you will get no Aussie bucks unless you risk having any disability pension by applying here. In a nutshell, expats either way, are now subject to exactly the same treatment as onshore DSPers applying for unlimited portability in a third world country. Third world countries incidentally may be defined as this: any country where you can purchase all the perfect food in a marketplace in one go for the same price as a few rotten trucked inedible pieces of vegetable shyte in Australia.
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Post by Banjo on Feb 16, 2013 17:59:10 GMT 7
Had some nice mangos today, three for 60 cents.....
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Post by peter on Feb 17, 2013 13:44:44 GMT 7
Oh, Baranghope you have reminded me.
In the hills of Scotland out on the moors, a Scottish shepherd was walking with his flock. Down below he saw some strangers, about to drink from the bubbling brook.
"Ahoy!" he yelled, "Din ye drink that, its full of sheep shyte."
The strangers looked up and responded. "Don't talk Gaelic to us, we're English".
The shepherd pondered and then responded "Well, ye are the luckiest people in Scotland to find such a fine fresh stream"
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Post by peter on Feb 17, 2013 15:25:48 GMT 7
And how does one obtain a "Certificate Of Residency" from his dual citizenship other half, when he is resident in the Australian half and not allowed out for more than six weeks with his DSP. Is not the other passport sufficient? and if not, what do they want one to do to obtain a "Certificate Of Residency"?
I was wondering how they would closed the departure door via Internaional Agreement countries, and is it that they now ask for a reassessment of one's eligibility for the DSP? If so, not a lot would like to take that chance under the new assessment rules. If so the door closes, not completely but nearly.
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Post by baranghope on Feb 18, 2013 7:55:54 GMT 7
Back last June, when we copped the "2 hour" JCA stuff and I baulked at applying for UP, I said to an officious CL prune in Hobart, what's to stop me from just transferring my existing DSP to Canada as per the Agreement, and from there I can go anywhere without travel restrictions. Of course, I had not realized that the axe came down on all that as well, July 1, 2012. Although they did not change any legal Agreements they changed the onshore protocols in line with full Med and Work review for anyone repatriating. Anyway, this sullen bitch supervisor knew she had me with the changes, and then, with regard to me travelling from Canada told me about the new Certificate of Residency form requirement. I gather what she meant was that one must get a legal form signed by the host government that this former Australian resident is residing permanently (6 months and a day under most tax residency jurisdictions) at such and such an address in said country. Of course, how the hell are they going to monitor a Greek using his or her Greek passport to visit anywhere?
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Post by aussieinusa on Feb 18, 2013 10:38:25 GMT 7
Thanks for the advice, baranghope. I think you're right that the only recourse I have (if any), this late afterwards, is the 'defective administration' thing.
I spoke to Welfare Rights, and they're not sure I'm eligible at all under the International Agreement, as I'm not a dual citizen; just someone whose career took them back and forth to the USA a lot. (And any attempt to re-establish my career so I can get off DSP means trips to the USA, sooner or later -- which I've done entirely at my own expense, to date.)
I'm not at all impressed with the Welfare Rights people at this point; the lady I spoke to literally said, "you can't just go overseas whenever you feel like it." I know that's the government line now, with all their propaganda about people taking years-long 'holidays' overseas "on the taxpayer's dime" (I'm caught up in that whole witchhunt atm, and not happy about it) but I thought Welfare Rights existed at least in part to stand up to the government, and their demonisation of those of us who really aren't well enough to just get a job and get away from all the C/L BS?!?
I don't understand how using my own money, which was well and truly under the Means Test threshold so I could've legally kept and got full DSP here, to take myself off DSP voluntarily for a while to use my own money to visit friends and colleagues overseas (and spend a whole lot of time trying to find work I can still do) means I'm "rorting the system"?? I spent years paying high taxes, thinking that was OK since the gov't provides a good safety net, so paying the high taxes here is like paying for lifetime medical and disability insurance, too... but no, that's not how it works any more; sick people are all bludgers who just don't want to work, or something.
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Post by Banjo on Feb 18, 2013 10:49:17 GMT 7
Welfare Rights hasn't been overly sympathetic towards residency and portability issues in many cases but they have done quite a good job in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal on occasions. I thought that Northern Territory guy who had no fixed address in Australia late last year had no hope but they represented him successfully.
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Post by peter on Feb 18, 2013 11:14:36 GMT 7
Well, the welfare net is full of holes and inequitabilities. When I applied for the OAP it was the first time in my life to visit a Centrelink Office and to become acquainted with the system.
I found the welfare system to be all over the place, handouts for various sections of the population.............bribes is a better term, and the idea of social welfare seemed to have been submerged under a kiddies party of handing out prizes to the lucky ones.
The Taxation system and the Superannuation system could be said to be the same. A lucky dip, for those lucky enough to dip.
But as for a well thought out welfare system that was not what I saw. During my waking up phase, I was wondering if I was out of touch. How could a Labour government allow such an inept welfare system to continue without an overhaul?
It was a furthur disappointment to realise that the government that we had was not a traditional labor government but one of union party career men and idealogues who were not in power for the people but for the "mates" of the people.....which means themselves, either for their egos or their pockets or their ideology, whatever combination might excite them. What a disappointment that waking up was. I was better off living in ignorance overseas for at least that ignorance was bliss.
But I see now that the welfare system is under attack from many intelligent sources for in trying to be all things to all people, not only does it waste money, but it overlooks concentration on what really needs to be done to achieve equitable social welfare.
They add and add to the system, and patch and patch but the system never gets a complete overhaul so that when one stumbles into it for a look........the result seen is inconsistencies and inequities all over the place.
I could go on for pages, but if one thinks after a look, that the system is iniquitous, then one has seen it correctly. ..............................
Yes, if a DSP has to undergo a new med to go offshore then not too many will be going which makes any Certificate Of Residency academic.
One could always up and leave to an Agreement country and reapply in the dual citizen country under their system but conditions vary from country to country.
Some are based on contributions to the system but nearly all would have a safety net to catch those who were welfare dependent and put them on some minimum payment.
The numbers on DSP in the Netherlands and UK are far higher than in Australia which would suggest that access to their DSP equivalent is easier than in Australia.
Or, if one has a Greek passport, go to the "island of the blind" therein and get the medical doctor there to put one down as "technically blind" and thus Disabled Pension eligible.
The doc said that yes, he did certify a large percentage of the island's adult population as "technically blind" not because of any envelope inducement but because it just happens to be more glarey on the island because its in the sea.
Yes, some of the blind were driving taxis, but only on cloudy days. Then again, a Greek DSP payment may soon not be worth much at all.
If aussieinusa was a dual citizen, then all she would have to do is go to Puerto Rico which has the highest disability acceptance rate out of all applications in the USA and apply there with a high possibility of a favorable outcome.
Depending on her residency circumstances, and she wishes to remain in the USA, then she should consider doing that or taking up permanent residency if she can, so that she becomes eligible to apply for their disability.
As for Australia, ordinary DSP's seem confined with only six week leave passes available. But I think there could be some movement to change amongst the individual countries of the Agreement group, because some may have very different interpretations to Centrelink's interpretations, as to what is permitted under the Agreements.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 15:46:02 GMT 7
Had some nice mangos today, three for 60 cents..... Knowing my luck they will be out of season in April when i come to Thailand. Bummer
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Post by Banjo on Feb 18, 2013 16:40:51 GMT 7
Banker says the price of massages have gone up as well.
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