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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 6:52:03 GMT 7
FireFly, you mentioned earlier that you have been working part time on the Dsp. That fact isn't going to help you get U.P. Bear or Tasjo will probably be able to fill in the finer details. Sorry but I'm not capable. While I'm mentioning them, I would like to give a big thanks to Bear and Tasjo for continually supplying pretty accurate advice, based on the legislation to all the threads that pop up. I'm not much help in that department, as my head functioning deteriorates. Yes timber, in the last 2 years I have managed to work part time but it has been sporadic and I've not managed to secure or maintain my position with an employer for any longer than 3 months and no more than 12 hrs a week. Also, my last job was over a year ago and my circumstances have changed as have my capabilities and capacity in regards to work or study. I was, as I always am, hopeful that I would be capable of part time work from home, or at least to study... but it appears that may not be possible for a while yet. I am still hopeful that I make a come back in the future haha but also think that day could be as far away as 2years... so feel that I still may fall under category of 30 points at this stage... I'll wait for my file and see what the professionals have to say. And yes!!! Massive shout out to Bear and Tasjo... They're information and advice is invaluable! Thanks guys 😊 |
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Post by nomadic on May 12, 2020 8:00:04 GMT 7
Yes, me also. My points were far higher than I was led to believe. My lawyer saw in 5 minutes in my file what they didn't reveal ever in 8 years. They have no legal obligation to tell us. Fo file is so important to get. By the way, when did you get DSP? If after 2012 then UP is possibly easier to get as rules have been far harsher since then in just getting DSP. Hey nomadic, I'm not sure of which year I was granted the DSP, from memory... which is poor... i think 2015. Are u saying that if granted AFTER 2012 it may be easier... or do u mean harder to be granted UP? Also,if you down mind me asking, have u urself applied for UP and been successful? 🙂 In 2012 they made it far harder to get DSP so if you got it after that then it should be easier to get UP. Emphasis on SHOULD. I got it after that even though I had been on DSP since 1998. My story is far more complicated though as I had been away since 1999 until they changed the rules in 2004. Then I had an 8 year fight to get UP again which i got again about 2013. So best advice if you want it is to get you file first. Then go for it as it is less likely it will spark a review if you got DSP after 2012. No they can't say you are not disabled if you can get on a plane on your own. Lastly OAP means Old Age Pension. But as bear says, no entry into these countries currently so you have plenty of time to check things out. |
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 8:34:00 GMT 7
OAP=Old Aged Pension.......   I think the department have dropped the "old" to placate the Politically Correct brigade. Possibly something to do with "old" contributing in making the descriptor a double negative ageist term. Weirdos...... cheers bear The "old" politically correct card ah? 😆 they're pulling that out left right and centre these days! Haha. When I DO actually apply for UP.. i assume they're going to ask questions about WHY you want to go overseas? Are there reasons that are considered valid or not valid?? Can I simply WANT to go overseas to stay with family friends for a 12 month break from my current circumstances at home? Or do I need to meet a criteria of "need" here too?? |
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Post by tasjo on May 12, 2020 9:30:16 GMT 7
For UP the basic way of understanding it is that due to severe impairment and a continued incapacity to work for 5 yrs or more, the usual tine limit of 28 days overseas does not apply.
You dont necessarily have to use it, but once granted centrelink are saying that you meet their criteria. You may want to simply spend more than 4 weeks a year overseas, or you may go for a single extended break.
Work capacity will probably be your biggest issue and risk. Centrelink generally assess within bands... 0-7, 8-14, 15-22... and often with an expectation that 'with aupport' capacity will increase to the next level. UP requires you to be both severely impaired and to have a work capacity of 0-2 hrs per week for 5 yrs. It would be difficult to demonstrate if you have worked up to 12hrs a week in the last 2 yrs.
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 10:42:01 GMT 7
For UP the basic way of understanding it is that due to severe impairment and a continued incapacity to work for 5 yrs or more, the usual tine limit of 28 days overseas does not apply. You dont necessarily have to use it, but once granted centrelink are saying that you meet their criteria. You may want to simply spend more than 4 weeks a year overseas, or you may go for a single extended break. Work capacity will probably be your biggest issue and risk. Centrelink generally assess within bands... 0-7, 8-14, 15-22... and often with an expectation that 'with aupport' capacity will increase to the next level. UP requires you to be both severely impaired and to have a work capacity of 0-2 hrs per week for 5 yrs. It would be difficult to demonstrate if you have worked up to 12hrs a week in the last 2 yrs. Hey Tasjo, I don't know what those "bands" mean 0-7 etc. Can u explain for me pls? Also, what is the expectation of capacity increasing to the next level?? I haven't heard any of this yet. I didn't realise that it was to be deemed incapacitated for 5+ years either, I thought it was 2+ years. Yes I worked 8-12 hours a week last year but only for the month of October 2019. Prior to that I held a position of around 12hrs p/w in 2018 for 9 months (but was using substances to complete shifts) Not sure if any of that matters though.. My circumstances now however have changed dramatically in some areas. My condition, having been exasperated, rendering me incapable of work, study or independent living without support amongst other hardships. Not sure how long (duration of time) i need to be in this state to be deemed UP eligible?? I still hold on to hope that I will regain more capability and capacity in the future... The last time my condition flared up, I was all but hospitalised for the most part of 12months. Required 24/7 home care by family to spare me being taken to hospital. With the passing of my mum last year, I am not afforded that luxury this time and am doing the best i can with the support I have to stay out of hospital... |
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Post by tasjo on May 12, 2020 11:29:24 GMT 7
0-7 etc are the hours that should show somewhere in your file as your capacity. It will probably be either 0-7 or 8-14 given you were awarded dsp in 2015.
Your UP application would, in my opinion, need to focus on the change in circumstance from what your file says your capacity was when dsp was granted and how you now meet the up criteria.
UP criteria is much stricter than dsp but your dsp eligibility is also assessed when you apply for up.
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 12:19:56 GMT 7
0-7 etc are the hours that should show somewhere in your file as your capacity. It will probably be either 0-7 or 8-14 given you were awarded dsp in 2015. Your UP application would, in my opinion, need to focus on the change in circumstance from what your file says your capacity was when dsp was granted and how you now meet the up criteria. UP criteria is much stricter than dsp but your dsp eligibility is also assessed when you apply for up. Thanks Tasjo. Now that my circumstances have changed, I am still left wondering how long I would have to be in this state before recognised as "semi permanent" or whatever they call it to meet the criteria. Since I was capable of working for a short period last September does that come into it? Or is it based on where I'm at now? Also, who determines how long I will be like this? Will CL take my Psychiatrist estimate or do they make up their own mind... I'm getting a little confused again |
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 13:12:11 GMT 7
I think that is what a lot of us think firefly . I certainly did; thought I'd be lucky to have 20 points on one table.....imagine my surprise when my FOI turned up and I had 30 points for mental health alone. I waited until I had my OAP to get my file; but it then made so much sense why I couldn't go through with a UP application. I was simply just too Ill to deal with it and it's made me wonder how many others have missed out through being simply too ill, and that's what makes me angry.......they don't need legislation; they just need to do a paper review. You meet it or you don't. That doesn't mess with people's heads though; and I believe that's the whole point of the current process. Cheers bear P.S. How crazy are they? On the 24 January on DSP I could go OS for 28 days paid in one year. On 25 January on OAP i could go OS paid and never return if that's my wish. Truly bizarre....... Hey bear, I've been chatting with Tasjo and am getting a little confused again. Can you please look over our chat and tell me what I am not understanding? I thought for UP you had to prove incapacity for work/study for 2+ years not 5?? Also, how do my new circumstances become labelled as "semi permanent" or whatever and how long do I have to be in this state before its considered as such... like Tasjo pointed out... i WAS working for one month last year... how does this look on my capacity assessment... and who has the ultimate say in my "capacity"? Is it my treating Psychiatrist... or are his notes taken and CL uses their own people to make that call... I'm a bit boggled haha. Doing that horse and cart thing again... so what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Lol pls help |
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Post by bear on May 12, 2020 14:54:57 GMT 7
Your new circumstances will become permanent through the presentation of new evidence submitted for the purpose of a UP application or a review. If the application is approved, that would be proof the evidence has been accepted. I note your work hours have decreased significantly from the year before last to last year plus the loss of your mum so, it seems your current circumstances have definitely changed and may significantly impact your ability to participate. The department's Job Capacity Assessor's recommendations are what is used to determine your eligibility, Your treating doctor's notes and recommendations will of course be taken into consideration. Why you want to go overseas is not anything they need to know; what you are doing is trying to avail yourself of, for want of better wording; an available extra through meeting the criteria. What they need to determine is whether you meet that criteria; essentially, what your ability is to participate in the workforce. As exciting a time as it is; try your best not to overthink everything at this early stage. Below is the criteria: Indefinite portability of DSP - severely impaired disability support pension From 1 July 2012 DSP recipients with a permanent and severe impairment and no future capacity to work are eligible for indefinite portability of their pension. DSP recipients applying for portability under these provisions are required to undergo an assessment of their impairment and their future work capacity (JCA). To be eligible for indefinite portability under these rules, a DSP recipient must: have a severe impairment (1.1.S.127) which will persist at this level for at least the next 5 years (i.e. no significant improvement is expected to the level of impairment within this period), and have no future work capacity, that is be prevented by their impairment from performing any work independently of a program of support within the next 5 years, or be assessed as manifestly eligible for DSP under the current (post December 2002) manifest criteria. A DSP recipient is accepted as being prevented from performing any work if, because of their impairment, they are deemed unlikely to have any capacity to undertake work in the open employment market in the next 5 years, even with interventions. For the purpose of these provisions, 'work' means work that: is on wages that are at or above the relevant minimum wage, and exists in Australia, even if not within the recipient's locally accessible labour market. DSP recipients need to apply for indefinite portability under these provisions while in Australia and are required to undergo a portability assessment before departure. guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/2/10P.S. The bands tasjo speaks of used to be included in the above information and gave the definitive answer to hours required to apply. 0-2 or 0-7; depends on whose experience your listening to. They are not our friends!! |
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Post by tasjo on May 12, 2020 16:44:20 GMT 7
Firefly... it is a little cart before horse but when you see your psychiatrist it is very worthwhile showing them the criteria under which you will be assessed if you apply for UP.
I believe that the biggest thing that worked (eventually) in my favour for my DSP claim was having an appropriately written report from my GP and specialist... remember that the JCA and Centrelink are not medical experts, they are looking at the criteria and lookong at the information supplied to see of kt matches the criteria.
In a nutshell thats what centrelink do for both dsp and UP claims. Meet the criteria and the claim gets approved... dont meet it and it doesnt. If not approved, you have the right to request a review and appeal the decision.
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 18:02:43 GMT 7
Your new circumstances will become permanent through the presentation of new evidence submitted for the purpose of a UP application or a review. If the application is approved, that would be proof the evidence has been accepted. I note your work hours have decreased significantly from the year before last to last year plus the loss of your mum so, it seems your current circumstances have definitely changed and may significantly impact your ability to participate. The department's Job Capacity Assessor's recommendations are what is used to determine your eligibility, Your treating doctor's notes and recommendations will of course be taken into consideration. Why you want to go overseas is not anything they need to know; what you are doing is trying to avail yourself of, for want of better wording; an available extra through meeting the criteria. What they need to determine is whether you meet that criteria; essentially, what your ability is to participate in the workforce. As exciting a time as it is; try your best not to overthink everything at this early stage. Below is the criteria: Indefinite portability of DSP - severely impaired disability support pension From 1 July 2012 DSP recipients with a permanent and severe impairment and no future capacity to work are eligible for indefinite portability of their pension. DSP recipients applying for portability under these provisions are required to undergo an assessment of their impairment and their future work capacity (JCA). To be eligible for indefinite portability under these rules, a DSP recipient must: have a severe impairment (1.1.S.127) which will persist at this level for at least the next 5 years (i.e. no significant improvement is expected to the level of impairment within this period), and have no future work capacity, that is be prevented by their impairment from performing any work independently of a program of support within the next 5 years, or be assessed as manifestly eligible for DSP under the current (post December 2002) manifest criteria. A DSP recipient is accepted as being prevented from performing any work if, because of their impairment, they are deemed unlikely to have any capacity to undertake work in the open employment market in the next 5 years, even with interventions. For the purpose of these provisions, 'work' means work that: is on wages that are at or above the relevant minimum wage, and exists in Australia, even if not within the recipient's locally accessible labour market. DSP recipients need to apply for indefinite portability under these provisions while in Australia and are required to undergo a portability assessment before departure. guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/2/10P.S. The bands tasjo speaks of used to be included in the above information and gave the definitive answer to hours required to apply. 0-2 or 0-7; depends on whose experience your listening to. They are not our friends!! Thanks again Bear! Just a couple more questions and I'll leave u alone... for a while... i will take ur advice and slow down a little, time is on my side and self isolation with a flared up condition is NOT a good head space to be in. The "bands" of hours capable of working/studying eg: 0-2, 3-7 etc. Are they still used in assessment upon application for UP? And if so do u have to prove 0-2... or must it be 0- meaning not capable at all of work or study? OH, and lastly I looked over the "table" of impairment link that you sent me and I meet, and have met for a long long time all 6 criteria under -mental health- at 20points, under the sub heading of SEVERE impairment. However, i was under the impression that you must have 30 points under the one category to be eligible for UP.. which means SEVERE is not enough to meet criteria. The next subheading is EXTREME and with my new circumstances - the only section under "mental health" that allows for 30 points. Upon reading through them... and considering my new circumstances and exasperation of my condition I only meet 4 out of 6 of the criteria... Is 6 out 6 for severe not enough and must I meet 6 out of 6 in the EXTREME category to apply for UP?? I promise I'll relax and chill a while now. Give my head a much needed rest. Thanks for all the great advice. I'll holla at ya down the track. Bye bear |
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Post by firefly on May 12, 2020 18:11:47 GMT 7
Firefly... it is a little cart before horse but when you see your psychiatrist it is very worthwhile showing them the criteria under which you will be assessed if you apply for UP. I believe that the biggest thing that worked (eventually) in my favour for my DSP claim was having an appropriately written report from my GP and specialist... remember that the JCA and Centrelink are not medical experts, they are looking at the criteria and lookong at the information supplied to see of kt matches the criteria. In a nutshell thats what centrelink do for both dsp and UP claims. Meet the criteria and the claim gets approved... dont meet it and it doesnt. If not approved, you have the right to request a review and appeal the decision. Yep this is just what I needed to hear! Take a few steps back... put the horse before the cart! Haha. Time is on my side... i have plenty of time with my Psychiatrist and other health professionals and since the most recent flare up of my condition has been the most debilitating... there will plenty of time spent with the health care professionals and therefore lots of assessments and observations that should tick centrelinks boxes and also, by the time I actually apply for anything, the documentation should support the claim of SEVERE to EXTREME impairment- long term. Like I said to bear, thanks for all your help and advice so far... time for my head to take a little break now. Will be back in touch later down the track!!! So much love for u guys! 😊 |
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Post by bear on May 12, 2020 19:36:43 GMT 7
If we are not careful we; you, tasjo and myself will end up at cross purposes here shortly. I'd imagine the bands are still in operation, though it would be best to get a response from someone who has recently received UP to know for sure how that part works. Although not in my previous link; it is without a doubt 20 points in one table. If you require help for most; that means for more than half. In the severe or twenty points category; it wouldn't be advisable to require help for (a), for obvious reasons; unless you have a carer that could go with you to attend to your needs. Since (b,c,d,e & f) for the most part allow for the person to be able to cope without help, this meets the criteria to get the 20 points. Don't get to caught up in points either......if you have twenty, it's all you need. If you currently have thirty; you may be downgraded to twenty, as IMHO it would be nigh on impossible to consider a person who met most of the descriptors could organise and travel alone overseas. Note: This should not come into the decision making.....keeping it separate and remaining nuetral on the matter would be a difficult task for JCA's. Cheers bear |
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Post by tasjo on May 12, 2020 20:10:06 GMT 7
While you take a breath firefly it would be worth applying for your file via freedom od information - it will show you what your last assessment was (job capacity, number of points and which table(s))... its a great place to start because then you know if you already have at least 20points on one table.
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Post by itsmylife08 on May 12, 2020 21:53:55 GMT 7
While you take a breath firefly it would be worth applying for your file via freedom od information - it will show you what your last assessment was (job capacity, number of points and which table(s))... its a great place to start because then you know if you already have at least 20points on one table. Yes the F.O.I gives some insight into what you are up against, but it isn't the B,all. I was granted UP in 2015 the final hurdle was having a job capacity of 0-2 hours per week, how that is possible I'll never know, or who would employ you for 2 hours is beyond me!!!. After the current pandemic is over? I believe the Governments policies and agenda should be more transparent!!! Cheers Itsa |
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 I think the department have dropped the "old" to placate the Politically Correct brigade. Possibly something to do with "old" contributing in making the descriptor a double negative ageist term. Weirdos...... cheers bear
