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Post by latindancer on May 14, 2020 11:48:11 GMT 7
While you take a breath firefly it would be worth applying for your file via freedom od information - it will show you what your last assessment was (job capacity, number of points and which table(s))... its a great place to start because then you know if you already have at least 20points on one table. Good advice. I had a look at my Centrelink file through FOI, and I was initially granted DSP with "over 20" points, so I knew that I would have no problem applying for UP, as since then I have had brain damage from doing part-time work (!). And I got UP....early this year
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Post by firefly on May 15, 2020 4:55:26 GMT 7
Your new circumstances will become permanent through the presentation of new evidence submitted for the purpose of a UP application or a review. If the application is approved, that would be proof the evidence has been accepted. I note your work hours have decreased significantly from the year before last to last year plus the loss of your mum so, it seems your current circumstances have definitely changed and may significantly impact your ability to participate. The department's Job Capacity Assessor's recommendations are what is used to determine your eligibility, Your treating doctor's notes and recommendations will of course be taken into consideration. Why you want to go overseas is not anything they need to know; what you are doing is trying to avail yourself of, for want of better wording; an available extra through meeting the criteria. What they need to determine is whether you meet that criteria; essentially, what your ability is to participate in the workforce. As exciting a time as it is; try your best not to overthink everything at this early stage. Below is the criteria: Indefinite portability of DSP - severely impaired disability support pension From 1 July 2012 DSP recipients with a permanent and severe impairment and no future capacity to work are eligible for indefinite portability of their pension. DSP recipients applying for portability under these provisions are required to undergo an assessment of their impairment and their future work capacity (JCA). To be eligible for indefinite portability under these rules, a DSP recipient must: have a severe impairment (1.1.S.127) which will persist at this level for at least the next 5 years (i.e. no significant improvement is expected to the level of impairment within this period), and have no future work capacity, that is be prevented by their impairment from performing any work independently of a program of support within the next 5 years, or be assessed as manifestly eligible for DSP under the current (post December 2002) manifest criteria. A DSP recipient is accepted as being prevented from performing any work if, because of their impairment, they are deemed unlikely to have any capacity to undertake work in the open employment market in the next 5 years, even with interventions. For the purpose of these provisions, 'work' means work that: is on wages that are at or above the relevant minimum wage, and exists in Australia, even if not within the recipient's locally accessible labour market. DSP recipients need to apply for indefinite portability under these provisions while in Australia and are required to undergo a portability assessment before departure. guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/2/10P.S. The bands tasjo speaks of used to be included in the above information and gave the definitive answer to hours required to apply. 0-2 or 0-7; depends on whose experience your listening to. They are not our friends!! So does everyone agree that to be eligible for UP u need to meet 20points for criteria... or is it 30??? BTW. Am applying for my file via post under FOI today, may just run it by u before I post it off, to check I've done it correctly cheers bear
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Post by firefly on May 15, 2020 5:28:25 GMT 7
If we are not careful we; you, tasjo and myself will end up at cross purposes here shortly. I'd imagine the bands are still in operation, though it would be best to get a response from someone who has recently received UP to know for sure how that part works. Although not in my previous link; it is without a doubt 20 points in one table. If you require help for most; that means for more than half. In the severe or twenty points category; it wouldn't be advisable to require help for (a), for obvious reasons; unless you have a carer that could go with you to attend to your needs. Since (b,c,d,e & f) for the most part allow for the person to be able to cope without help, this meets the criteria to get the 20 points. Don't get to caught up in points either......if you have twenty, it's all you need. If you currently have thirty; you may be downgraded to twenty, as IMHO it would be nigh on impossible to consider a person who met most of the descriptors could organise and travel alone overseas. Note: This should not come into the decision making.....keeping it separate and remaining nuetral on the matter would be a difficult task for JCA's. Cheers bear I did post somewhere else about whether everyone had agreed on if it was 20 or 30 points that must be met to be eligible for UP... not sure if it went onto the forum though... sorry if it has and I have double posted!! It seems that some of the criteria that have u meet 30 points (extreme) seem counter-productive for UP as they mostly imply that u cannot do much alone.... But is the 20points (severe) that allow for a little more independence... is that enough to be eligible... seems a tough one! Shed a little light if u can. Also Bear, I've decided to apply for my file through FOI via email. It reads as follows: Hi. My name is ■□●○○○●□ CRN Number ●○●○●<■○ This is a written request/application for release of all documents held by Centrelink/Department of Human Services for the purposes of the FOI Act. I am seeking all documents for personal review from the date of October 8th 2013 up until and including May 8th 2020. Relating but not limited to my DSP eligibility and notes regarding my applications, impairment tables and JCA's. I am requesting that the documents on file be released to me via hard copy and post. My address is: ●●□□□○○●●□□ I appreciate your time, assistance and cooperation. Thank you kindly. *name* Does that cover it all and sound right to u?
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Post by bear on May 15, 2020 6:52:02 GMT 7
It's above your last post firefly I'll leave it for others to reassure yo on that!! Just to clarify: Meeting most of the descriptors in order to receive X points is something you have already attained, and is irrelevant to a UP application unless you are intending to update your medical information. The letter is great; virtually identical to my own request. I also provided my phone number, and they did call a couple of times. Whether they'll provide your file in hard copy from an electronic application will remain to be seen. That may be one reason for a phone call. To clarify why they are obligated to do it one way or the other. Cheers bear
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Post by firefly on May 15, 2020 8:33:01 GMT 7
It's above your last post firefly I'll leave it for others to reassure yo on that!! Just to clarify: Meeting most of the descriptors in order to receive X points is something you have already attained, and is irrelevant to a UP application unless you are intending to update your medical information. The letter is great; virtually identical to my own request. I also provided my phone number, and they did call a couple of times. Whether they'll provide your file in hard copy from an electronic application will remain to be seen. That may be one reason for a phone call. To clarify why they are obligated to do it one way or the other. Cheers bear Thanks bear, I'll send off that request now! Also, would the 5year incapacity have to be deemed effective to start from the date of UP Application?? I'll wait to see if anyone else has the answers as to whether its "severe"-20points or "extreme"-30points that must be met to obtain UP. Cheers again 😊
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Post by nomadic on May 15, 2020 8:36:54 GMT 7
You are on the right track and I agree with bear. No need to worry about points. You have DSP after 2012 so you have enough points for UP. Other factors come into play now, like work capacity I think but I do not know how that works anymore. Slowly slowly is how to go especially with no travel currently you have time on your side.
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Post by bear on May 15, 2020 10:19:55 GMT 7
The 5 year incapacity must be acknowledged to be present by the JCA, from the information provided on the application form, as one part of the requirements for the application to be approved.
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Post by firefly on May 16, 2020 10:16:03 GMT 7
The 5 year incapacity must be acknowledged to be present by the JCA, from the information provided on the application form, as one part of the requirements for the application to be approved. Ok this makes sense... So with my work capacity having a record of being slowly being diminished down to practically none over the last2 years... And now with my condition flaring up again reducing my work load to NIL and rendering me fully incapacitated again... this will be noted by the JCA upon application. Got it... But HOW do they make a decision on whether or not the circumstances will remain the same for 5 years?? Seems a big call to make! U said it's section 1 of the application... I'm just wondering what supporting documents from psychologists,Psychiatrists GPs etc I could take in with me when applying. Don't wanna look a fool if JCA makes a decision on the spot and i don't even get past section one of the application....
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Post by nomadic on May 16, 2020 11:38:49 GMT 7
If you get a report from your Psychiatrist saying no improvement in 5 years then you should be set for it. They cannot "GUESS" what will happen to you in the next 5 years especially if you have a report on it. Maybe time to put it in with nothing to lose. UP to gain.
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Post by jr on May 16, 2020 14:05:09 GMT 7
Hi Firefly,
Its good that your gathering so much information to work out your options before going overseas. I really hope it works out well and I remember the success the other member that was mentioned from this forum had taking an exchange program overseas and getting their dsp overseas. I would not worry about the jca rejecting your application outright, because as far as I know (?) the jca report still goes to someone within centrelink’s medical department for review of your application and they make the final decision, clearly a favourable jca report would greatly influence their decision though. I would genuinely worry about meeting the criteria for the 0-2 hours work capacity, with a recent work history. From reading through the thread and what you wrote about your condition, it sounds like you meet the 20 points criteria and feel that you could prove that easily with information from your psychiatrist which is really great, I would absolutely also try to focus on getting really strong evidence from your psychiatrist about your current and future inability to work and how circumstances have changed/deteriorated from the times that you were working previously. When I read alot of the AAT tribunal cases throughout my own review, I noticed that previous work history came up alot in their assessments. I would try to really focus on showing how you meet the 20 points in one category and also strongly emphasise that your work capacity has permanently reduced to 0-2 hours for the foreseeable five years and will not improve or increase again. This is just my two cents, but I really hope it helps. It would be great to hear in future that you are following your dream of studying overseas next year and I wish you well with it.
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Post by bear on May 16, 2020 14:23:47 GMT 7
1.U said it's section 1 of the application... The 5 year incapacity must be acknowledged to be present by the JCA, from the information provided on the application form, as one part of the requirements for the application to be approved. 2. But HOW do they make a decision on whether or not the circumstances will remain the same for 5 years?? Seems a big call to make! 1. Don't use skewed part quotes to fit your own narrative thanks!! It's one application, requiring that you meet three sets of pre-determined criteria. The other two parts are: 20 points/1 table & NFWC (no future work capacity) 0-2 hrs Although JCA's may make decisions "on the spot" regarding a person's character, they are primarily meant to assess your capability to participate in the work force; then it is the medical board who make the final determination for DSP or UP. 2. Not a call for the JCA to make...... it's something which is written and signed off on, on the application form by your treating doctor. So if your doctor is unprepared to sign off on the 5 years......forget about applying for UP/IP. Don't go into this lightly if REVIEWS are something to be avoided in your mind; because that is what will be happening, at your own request. Except it will be a much more thorough review than a random medical review. Consequences of failure may mean loss of DSP. If you apply for your forms via a phone call to International Services they will go out of their way to impress this upon you.
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Post by firefly on May 16, 2020 15:42:04 GMT 7
1.U said it's section 1 of the application... The 5 year incapacity must be acknowledged to be present by the JCA, from the information provided on the application form, as one part of the requirements for the application to be approved. 2. But HOW do they make a decision on whether or not the circumstances will remain the same for 5 years?? Seems a big call to make! 1. Don't use skewed part quotes to fit your own narrative thanks!! It's one application, requiring that you meet three sets of pre-determined criteria. The other two parts are: 20 points/1 table & NFWC (no future work capacity) 0-2 hrs Although JCA's may make decisions "on the spot" regarding a person's character, they are primarily meant to assess your capability to participate in the work force; then it is the medical board who make the final determination for DSP or UP. 2. Not a call for the JCA to make...... it's something which is written and signed off on, on the application form by your treating doctor. So if your doctor is unprepared to sign off on the 5 years......forget about applying for UP/IP. Don't go into this lightly if REVIEWS are something to be avoided in your mind; because that is what will be happening, at your own request. Except it will be a much more thorough review than a random medical review. Consequences of failure may mean loss of DSP. If you apply for your forms via a phone call to International Services they will go out of their way to impress this upon you. Thanks bear, sorry about the mis quote... it said "one part of the requirements...." and I read "part ONE of the requirements!!" Simple error but had me worried that I may not be able to get past "PART ONE! Haha 🤦♀️🤦♀️ My vision is a little off so I mis read it is all, sorry to mis quote. I'm not worried about a review as I believe I either still meet the points required for the DSP that I was granted in 2014... or if anything, a review would probably have me meet even more points. It is the 5 year sign off that I'm worried about meeting... hence doing all this research and harassing you guys so much. Lol. There was one part that said... oh I hope I'm quoting this right haha "and have no future work capacity, that is be prevented by their impairment from performing any work independently of a program of support within the next 5 years, or be assessed as manifestly eligible for DSP under the current (post December 2002) manifest criteria." This is the part I'm unsure of.... *Independently of a program of support?* what do they mean by that? Anyway, I did apply for my file via FOI and will have a good and proper look through it to see what's changed in the last 6 years. I HAVE deteriorated during that time... MASSIVELY, but I have had short periods of time where I have been able to pull it together and do a little study, even work a few hours here and there over the last 6 years... So i guess ultimately... looking at my application as a whole... the decline in my capacity should be obvious to JCA or any CL medical board etc. then having a Psychiatrist letter to say that this current level of incapacity is for 5 years. I do feel like all this info is helping me to feel more confident!! Going in there, armed with a little knowledge and a lot of preparation is gunna pay of in the end. Cheers for ur input again.
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Post by bear on May 16, 2020 17:56:59 GMT 7
"have no future work capacity, that is be prevented by their impairment from performing any work independently of a program of support within the next 5 years, or be assessed as manifestly eligible for DSP under the current (post December 2002) manifest criteria." This is an and/or scenario. A manifest grant would see a fast track on a UP application, as the former has already been overwritten by the manifest grant. In other words the NFWC criteria is no longer a concern nor should it be required to be assessed.This is the part I'm unsure of.... *Independentlyofa program ofbsupport?* what do they mean by that? tasjo is more up to date on program of support rules than me, so I'd best leave that to her. Other than to say this: If you need to be enrolled in a POS in order to look for, find and keep a job; you cannot do it independently, so therefore should meet the criteria if the doctor has signed off on the five years.....maybe. Cheers bear
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Post by nomadic on May 17, 2020 8:29:55 GMT 7
Bear above sums up my situation exactly. I was listed on my file as manifestly from day 1. but they never told me that in 8 years. I believe it was even a criminal cover up. Then I got my file and 5 minutes later was granted UP. So if manifest you are home and hosed for UP. So please keep us up to date when you get your file. The laws really need to be to changed so that they MUST tell us the truth without the need for us to dig it up over years for many. It really is a vile system run by even viler people. Most people trust them to be honest and give up. and they are by their morally corrupt laws but not ethically in any way.
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Post by firefly on May 17, 2020 11:47:41 GMT 7
Hi Firefly, Its good that your gathering so much information to work out your options before going overseas. I really hope it works out well and I remember the success the other member that was mentioned from this forum had taking an exchange program overseas and getting their dsp overseas. I would not worry about the jca rejecting your application outright, because as far as I know (?) the jca report still goes to someone within centrelink’s medical department for review of your application and they make the final decision, clearly a favourable jca report would greatly influence their decision though. I would genuinely worry about meeting the criteria for the 0-2 hours work capacity, with a recent work history. From reading through the thread and what you wrote about your condition, it sounds like you meet the 20 points criteria and feel that you could prove that easily with information from your psychiatrist which is really great, I would absolutely also try to focus on getting really strong evidence from your psychiatrist about your current and future inability to work and how circumstances have changed/deteriorated from the times that you were working previously. When I read alot of the AAT tribunal cases throughout my own review, I noticed that previous work history came up alot in their assessments. I would try to really focus on showing how you meet the 20 points in one category and also strongly emphasise that your work capacity has permanently reduced to 0-2 hours for the foreseeable five years and will not improve or increase again. This is just my two cents, but I really hope it helps. It would be great to hear in future that you are following your dream of studying overseas next year and I wish you well with it. Thanks very much for your encouragement jr. I was just discussing with my CAT team about my plans for the future once things settle down again. They seemed to think that my Psychiatrist wouldn't have an issue signing me off for the 5 years and all agreed that a one or two year break could do me the world of good.. they said they think he (the psych) would agree and therefore wouldn't have a problem with writing a letter to help support my claim! I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the well wishes. Firefly
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