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Post by firefly on May 17, 2020 11:50:43 GMT 7
Bear above sums up my situation exactly. I was listed on my file as manifestly from day 1. but they never told me that in 8 years. I believe it was even a criminal cover up. Then I got my file and 5 minutes later was granted UP. So if manifest you are home and hosed for UP. So please keep us up to date when you get your file. The laws really need to be to changed so that they MUST tell us the truth without the need for us to dig it up over years for many. It really is a vile system run by even viler people. Most people trust them to be honest and give up. and they are by their morally corrupt laws but not ethically in any way. What do u mean by listed as "manifest/manifestly"? What is that and how does it help the UP grant?
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Post by bear on May 17, 2020 16:45:16 GMT 7
As I attempted to explain previously.....if you have a manifest grant your have already been determined as having NFWC. Being manifest will also see you having at least 20 points in one table. Although to be deemed manifest 30 is a much more likely number. 30 points descriptors are different on all tables, so it doesn't necessarily follow you wouldn't be eligible for UP. If given a manifest grant it has already been determined your disability will last for more than 5 years. Note: A review for the purposes of UP, will never see your original determination changed to a manifest grant. Manifest grants: guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/3/6/2/20
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Post by tasjo on May 17, 2020 18:10:08 GMT 7
Firefly - there are very few manifest grants of DSP now from what I understand. When you receive your file it should be clear if you meet the manifest criteria. To my knowledge there are only a few now - being blind, iq below 70(?) and severe physical impairment to the point of needing residential care.
As bear mentioned, if you qualify for DSP on manifest grounds you will be entitled to UP but it isnt something that can be applied for. It will either be clear in your file or it wont.
Being independent of a program of support basically means that the Disability Employment Services (such as Wise, Max employment, APM etc) are unable to assist you to find employment. If you have used a DES provider recently then be prepared to also cover what support they provided and why they wouldnt help in the future. You would be effectively exiting from support of the DES providers in the future.
One thing you will need to consider with UP is whether you are likely to want support in the future after returning from your time overseas... there are pros and cons to having a continued incapacity to work.
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Post by firefly on May 18, 2020 6:56:35 GMT 7
As I attempted to explain previously.....if you have a manifest grant your have already been determined as having NFWC. Being manifest will also see you having at least 20 points in one table. Although to be deemed manifest 30 is a much more likely number. 30 points descriptors are different on all tables, so it doesn't necessarily follow you wouldn't be eligible for UP. If given a manifest grant it has already been determined your disability will last for more than 5 years. Note: A review for the purposes of UP, will never see your original determination changed to a manifest grant. Manifest grants: guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/3/6/2/20Got it. Thanks Bear. I won't/don't meet any of the manifest criteria so we're getting closer and closer to finding out what WILL work for me through process of elimination. I appreciate ur continued support and assistance. 🤩
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Post by firefly on May 18, 2020 7:04:47 GMT 7
Firefly - there are very few manifest grants of DSP now from what I understand. When you receive your file it should be clear if you meet the manifest criteria. To my knowledge there are only a few now - being blind, iq below 70(?) and severe physical impairment to the point of needing residential care. As bear mentioned, if you qualify for DSP on manifest grounds you will be entitled to UP but it isnt something that can be applied for. It will either be clear in your file or it wont. Being independent of a program of support basically means that the Disability Employment Services (such as Wise, Max employment, APM etc) are unable to assist you to find employment. If you have used a DES provider recently then be prepared to also cover what support they provided and why they wouldnt help in the future. You would be effectively exiting from support of the DES providers in the future. One thing you will need to consider with UP is whether you are likely to want support in the future after returning from your time overseas... there are pros and cons to having a continued incapacity to work. Hey Tasjo, I had a look at the link Bear provided and it's clear that I don't meet any manifest criteria. I have applied and will wait patiently for my file to have a thorough look through. At this stage I think my Psychiatrist is willing to consider writing me off for the 5 years and one of my psychologists could do the same. But i get what you're saying about the pros and cons... If i get my UP wish granted but am only overseas for 1 year, maybe 2... then even upon my return to Australia I will not be able to return to work ... until the 5 years is up correct?? What happens after that 5 year period comes to an end? Do u get reassessed?
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Post by bear on May 18, 2020 7:28:21 GMT 7
1.Being reassessed is something that hasn't happened to anyone we know that has UP. Once you have UP you have it for as long as you have DSP. If you received it through changed circumstances, went OS for a year, came back and started doing part time work, unless the hours were excessive, would they bother to review someone who's satisfied the harsh criteria for UP; considering the debacle the under 35's/90,000 review program turned into, where the fraud was so miniscule they abandoned it. I consider UP to be a defacto manifest grant.
2. If you receive UP, the five years isn't a determination on how you must live your life. It's simply another notation on your file. If you receive UP; carry on, live YOUR life and put the process out of your mind.
Although I have NFBI; I doubt that asking for a program of support to see if you can work after being OS for an extended period would trigger a review, because the fact is, some people who have manifest grants do do full or part time work. They don't seem to have a reputation for being reviewed. Cheers bear
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Post by nomadic on May 18, 2020 8:33:42 GMT 7
I have never been asked for a review since 1999. I am manifest since 1996 with UP since 2012. I go back yearly normally for a short time only until the virus stopped me this year. So as bear said, if you get it just live life as you want to as I don't think you will hear from them again. i have not heard from them in 8 years now other than one cock up by them about 6 years ago which was cleared up in 5 minutes due to their incompetence only. So i believe if you get UP all will be good. getting it is the big question as it is for most.
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Post by firefly on May 18, 2020 15:43:38 GMT 7
I have never been asked for a review since 1999. I am manifest since 1996 with UP since 2012. I go back yearly normally for a short time only until the virus stopped me this year. So as bear said, if you get it just live life as you want to as I don't think you will hear from them again. i have not heard from them in 8 years now other than one cock up by them about 6 years ago which was cleared up in 5 minutes due to their incompetence only. So i believe if you get UP all will be good. getting it is the big question as it is for most. This all sounds great and from the feedback I've received so far from speaking with my healthcare professionals... i could potentially end up with 3 letters supporting "no future work capacity". If that's the biggest hurdle then I'm looking good so far. Still waiting at least 6 months before ACTUALLY applying though. Thanks for the input nomadic. I really appreciate it! 👍😊
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Post by firefly on May 18, 2020 15:52:17 GMT 7
1.Being reassessed is something that hasn't happened to anyone we know that has UP. Once you have UP you have it for as long as you have DSP. If you received it through changed circumstances, went OS for a year, came back and started doing part time work, unless the hours were excessive, would they bother to review someone who's satisfied the harsh criteria for UP; considering the debacle the under 35's/90,000 review program turned into, where the fraud was so miniscule they abandoned it. I consider UP to be a defacto manifest grant. 2. If you receive UP, the five years isn't a determination on how you must live your life. It's simply another notation on your file. If you receive UP; carry on, live YOUR life and put the process out of your mind. Although I have NFBI; I doubt that asking for a program of support to see if you can work after being OS for an extended period would trigger a review, because the fact is, some people who have manifest grants do do full or part time work. They don't seem to have a reputation for being reviewed. Cheers bear I really like this post Bear!! Live my life! That's exactly what I wanna do. Yes, i have to tick a few boxes and meet a few criteria to get something started, which is a little stressful right now... but after that... the idea of putting the process out of my mind and just carrying on with life sounds so amazingly peaceful! Lol Also, we have spoken before on this thread about "wishing or hoping I was a little more capable"... If my circumstances DID change again down the track and I COULD potentially work a few hours here and there... that would also be amazing! I'm gaining more and more confidence on this thread... i can't wait to finally give u guys the outcome (but let's say I'm quietly positive shhh) Thanks again 🐻👍
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Post by bear on May 18, 2020 20:02:30 GMT 7
It's not something you would know until you tried......and personally I'd consider I'd learned better coping mechanisms through having that time to be by myself in a place of my choosing to think, and get to know myself. That's how it worked for me. Too many people think they need other people to tell them how to think and act, and vice versa; imho, they don't.......so long as their individual conscience is clear about their own actions and other people aren't being impacted or hurt in any negative way. Again IMHO; to give away or allow their individuality and uniqueness to be coerced from a person is the greatest loss and disservice they can do to themselves. Cheers bear
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Post by tasjo on May 18, 2020 20:44:35 GMT 7
This would be possibly one of your only downsides of applying for and being granted UP and it entirely depends on how much value and use you currently have from the Disability Employment Services or any other 'support' programs that are supposed to assist you to find or stay in work. It wouldnt be a case of asking for a program of support because as someone that is independent of a program of support you would be ineligible for one. I made a choice when I applied for DSP that the POS was of no real use to me - in my late 40s, having already completed post graduate education (so I wouldnt be eligible for govt supported education programs outside of HECS), and the only 'support' being offered was for minimum wage at 8 hrs a week which would have been detrimental to my health. But its always worth making an informed choice.
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Post by tasjo on May 18, 2020 20:47:02 GMT 7
sorry, I accidently deleted bears comment... but hopefully you can work out the part that I was referring to...
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Post by bear on May 18, 2020 21:03:51 GMT 7
Ah, now I see tasjo .....tricky little buggers aren't they? So essentially you'd be on your own; which shouldn't be a problem if you'd achieved a better understanding and outlook in the management of your life.
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Post by nomadic on May 19, 2020 8:02:02 GMT 7
It's not something you would know until you tried......and personally I'd consider I'd learned better coping mechanisms through having that time to be by myself in a place of my choosing to think, and get to know myself. That's how it worked for me. Too many people think they need other people to tell them how to think and act, and vice versa; imho, they don't.......so long as their individual conscience is clear about their own actions and other people aren't being impacted or hurt in any negative way. Again IMHO; to give away or allow their individuality and uniqueness to be coerced from a person is the greatest loss and disservice they can do to themselves. Cheers bear Spot on again bear. Nothing gets me growling like others telling me how i should enjoy "MY" life. And it is pure evil when politicians try to force disabled people to do what "THEY" want or think is best for us. Even more so again when it goes against the U.N. charter on disabled people. So firefly why wait another 6 months? Getting UP will be a real joy and no more to worry about. You now seem to have all bases covered.
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Post by firefly on May 20, 2020 5:05:48 GMT 7
1.Being reassessed is something that hasn't happened to anyone we know that has UP. Once you have UP you have it for as long as you have DSP. If you received it through changed circumstances, went OS for a year, came back and started doing part time work, unless the hours were excessive, would they bother to review someone who's satisfied the harsh criteria for UP; considering the debacle the under 35's/90,000 review program turned into, where the fraud was so miniscule they abandoned it. I consider UP to be a defacto manifest grant. 2. If you receive UP, the five years isn't a determination on how you must live your life. It's simply another notation on your file. If you receive UP; carry on, live YOUR life and put the process out of your mind. Although I have NFBI; I doubt that asking for a program of support to see if you can work after being OS for an extended period would trigger a review, because the fact is, some people who have manifest grants do do full or part time work. They don't seem to have a reputation for being reviewed. Cheers bear What's the under 35's/90,000 review program? And thanks for the confidence boost again bear.. knowing that.. even if granted the UP then if my condition DOES improve over time, that I can still attempt to participate in some study or even work again. I think my doctors will like this idea too. Knowing that I'm not just trying to obtain UP to get out of ever working again! I simply want to take a break overseas and need my current condition acknowledged to do so. Let me know about this 'debacle'?! 😁 BTW.. i haven't even received a confirmation email or anything to say that Human Resources received my request for file under FOI... should I send a follow up to make sure they got it? It's been about a week..
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