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Post by ann on Jan 5, 2021 6:33:39 GMT 7
I have opened this new thread because I note some people worry a lot about getting the points etc for unlimited portability but ignore the laws regarding ongoing payments.
I can’t find any clear links to present.
Some Scenarios - not in any particular order
1. If a person on DSP is granted Unlimited Portability that means they are below the age for the age pension. BUT if that person is not a citizen of Australia, but a permanent resident, will they loose the payments after their visa expires?
I see the visa is for 5 years so assume they are no longer entitled to any payments from Australia. Also if the visa does expire it seems they will probably never get another one to get back in.
The vast majority of countries do allow dual citizenship.
2. I know that if a person is on the DSP and goes overseas they get the pension for a few weeks, would they also get rent assistance?
3. If an AGE pension person goes overseas for a few weeks/months will they get the rent assistance - given they would still be paying rent in Australia?
I’ve been with the forum for a few years and note the new people never regard citizenship issues as being as important as obtaining points. I can understand that but do worry they will get the points, bugger off and then loose their residency and then loose the payments.
All countries are getting stricter with their borders it seems, the goal posts will continue moving and I hate to see anyone leave and not be able to get back.
I would appreciate it if smarter minds than mine can present a Sticky so this issue is available for people. It’s a massive threat - MAYBE - I just don’t know.
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Post by bear on Jan 5, 2021 7:08:39 GMT 7
Perhaps my thoughts fit the thread also ann and these provisions override at least some of your concerns. Many years ago I went to my local office re UP. I was told they could do it for me there on the day through the social security agreement provisions. Unfortunately where I wanted to go wasn't on the list so that was the end of that. Our new member wallyaussie got me to thinking about that experience again so I've looked it up. This is what it says re portability via SSA's. It will.require more investigation as each agreement country has different rules though, but I think this is how they may have been able to sort it out on the day. I'll try to find and read the agreement for the USA. Cheers bear P.S. Any info from members living OS under a SSA on DSP and whether or not they were required to undergo the usual UP processes or not gratefully received. Social Security Guide Version 1.276 - Released 4 January 2021 Home » Social Security Guide » 7 Portability & comparable foreign payment (CFP) » 7.1 Conditions for payment outside Australia » 7.1.1 Portability legislation » 7.1.1.20 Summary of Portability under International Social Security Agreements 7.1.1.20 Summary of Portability under International Social Security Agreements International social security agreements (1.1.A.120) International social security agreements are contained in the SS(IntAgree)Act. They change the basic provisions of social security law. Each international social security agreement has its own portability rules for the payments it covers. Age, DSP, WP, WidB, CP, and pension PPS are portable according to the coverage specified in the respective agreement.Payments paid under the former UK Agreement are only portable for temporary absences for up to 12 months to any country, including New Zealand. However, if a person remains in New Zealand for more than 26 weeks, their rate will be affected by the rate provision of the New Zealand Agreement. For general information on portability for recipients going to New Zealand see 7.1.3.10 and 7.1.3.20. Portability under agreements is specified in the individual agreement. Generally (except for New Zealand), all payments covered under the scope of the agreement are portable at least to the agreement country, and often to third countries. Many agreements specify that portability to third countries is determined by the SSAct. This means that the rules in SSAct section 1217 apply as if the agreement country were Australia. Example: WP to a non-entitled person will only be portable to a third country for 6 weeks. Agreement pensioners governed by these rules (where it refers to the Australian legislation) are saved under the old rules (for example, 12 months portability) if they were in a third country immediately before 20 September 2000. Act reference: SS(IntAgree)Act Schedule 1 United Kingdom, Schedule 3 New Zealand SSAct section 1217 Meaning of maximum portability period, allowable absence and portability period Policy reference: SS Guide 10.2 Agreement with New Zealand Last reviewed: 21 March 2016 Contact us Copyright & Disclaimer Privacy Accessibility Readspeaker guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/1/1/20
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Post by bear on Jan 5, 2021 7:39:32 GMT 7
The question probably now becomes; "How long does a Resident Return Visa remain current and can it be applied for OS?" Permanent residentsAs a permanent resident, you can leave Australia and return on your permanent visa as often as you wish for the first 5 years after the visa is granted. After this: the travel component of your permanent visa will expire, making travel back to Australia difficult you must apply for a Resident Return visa if you want to leave Australia and return as a permanent residentIf you are outside Australia when the travel component of your permanent visa expires, do not return to Australia on any other kind of visa. If you do: you might lose your permanent resident status your eligibility for citizenship might be affected immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/Visa-subsite/Pages/extend-expired-visas/your-visa-is-expiring-or-has-expired.aspx
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Post by bear on Jan 5, 2021 7:51:34 GMT 7
Current International Social Security AgreementsAll these agreements are based on the concept of shared responsibility. Shared responsibility agreements are reciprocal. Partner countries under each agreement make concessions against their social security qualification rules so that people covered by the agreement may access payments for which they might otherwise fail to qualify. In this way, responsibility for social security is shared between the countries where a person has lived during their working years and the person is able to unlock potential entitlements. Generally, a pension from one country can be accessed in the second country, although the paying country maintains some discretion in the currency and delivery mechanisms used. Under these agreements, Australia equates social insurance periods/residence in those countries with periods of Australian residence in order to meet the minimum qualifying periods for Australian pensions. The other countries generally count periods of Australian working life residence as periods of social insurance in order to meet their minimum qualifying periods for payment. Usually, each country will pay a part pension to a person who has lived in both countries. For more information on claim procedures and payments under an agreement: Contact Centrelink International Services. Visit your local Centrelink Customer Service Centre. Department of Human Services Publications - Australia's International Social Security Agreements Factsheets For policy information, contact the Department of Social Services(link sends e-mail). United States of Americawww.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/international-social-security-agreements/current-international-social-security-agreements/social-security-agreement-between-australia-and-the-united-states-of-americawww.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/international-social-security-agreements/current-international-social-security-agreements/australia-and-the-united-states-of-america-usa-frequently-asked-questionsNote: After a brief perusal of the above links I have concluded any further comment is well.above my pay grade. There may or may not be mention of portability provisions and how to unlock them. Cheers bear
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Post by ann on Jan 5, 2021 8:22:18 GMT 7
Had a good laugh as it’s way way above my pay grade also. I’m still left doubting any government will continue to pay pensions to people living in another country when they are not citizens or permanent residences.
With 29.7% of the population not born in Australia we are bound to have many many who don’t get naturalised and eventually go back ‘home’ for whatever reason. Do they get paid? Dunno.
Getting points for UP is one thing - keeping the income might well be another is my thought.
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Post by bear on Jan 5, 2021 9:21:13 GMT 7
I would think only so long as they maintain permanent residency as a connection to Australia, then only to the amount AWLR proscribes; unless a SSA overrides the PR component as in the highlighted text above. I think a non SSA country would see the payment end if PR was not maintained i.e. renewed every five years.
What a can of worms....... cheers bear.
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Post by tasjo on Jan 5, 2021 16:57:45 GMT 7
My understanding is that dual citizenship (and permanent residency) is also based on the rules of the initial country of citizenship... So, hypothetically, 2 people from the same countries may have different 'rights' to citizenship, based on which country they were first citizens of. I believe Australia is actually stricter than a lot of countries (UK included) in terms of taking out dual citizenship without 'giving up' your Australian. I'm not sure if its of any relevance or makes things more confusing
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Post by ann on Jan 5, 2021 17:59:43 GMT 7
It’s so confusing I’m going to phone and ask. I know the answer isn’t a total guarantee but may direct me to a page on their site.
I’m concerned migrants to Australia expect to get lifetime payments when they go to live in another country - when they didn’t get naturalised.
It seems to me they get all their ducks in a row for unlimited portability but maybe getting naturalised is the first thing to do. I don’t know, but I will find out.
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Post by tasjo on Jan 5, 2021 18:37:03 GMT 7
I know that for us one consideration was whether we would be allowed to retain dual citizenship... otherwise we too would have stayed permanent residents.
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Post by Banjo on Jan 6, 2021 6:48:29 GMT 7
With any pensioner deciding to live overseas, resident or citizen, they are only paid a percentage of the full pension based on their Australian working life residency.
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Post by Banjo on Jan 6, 2021 6:54:05 GMT 7
July 2014 - AWLR requirements increase to 35 years
Since 1 July 2014 the period of Australian Working Life Residence (AWLR) required to receive a full means-tested pension outside Australia after 26 weeks increased from 25 years to 35 years. A person’s working life residence is the period of time they have lived in Australia between the age of 16 and Age Pension age.
To continue receiving the full rate of Australian pension, recipients will generally need to have spent 35 years of their working life in Australia. People do not need to have worked or paid tax during this period.
If a person has less than 35 years AWLR their rate of payment will be adjusted according to their working life residence. For example, if they have 27 years AWLR, they will receive 27/35ths (77 percent) of the maximum means-tested rate of payment.
Recipients on the following payments may be affected by the AWLR change:
Age Pension DSP (in limited circumstances) Wife Pension Widow B Pension
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Post by nomadic on Jan 6, 2021 7:34:50 GMT 7
Far too much for me to get involved in but did pick up that permanent doesn't actually mean permanent which reminded me of a phone call years ago when I rang to tell them of my return and the guy told me as I was back permanently I was under the new rules. But I have a return flight back to Thailand in 2 weeks so not permanent I told him. Two weeks is permanent he said. At the time I thought it was his first day on the job after just finishing kindergarten. Years later I realized he had just lied to me to deter me. It truly was an amazing call at the time when I still trusted them.
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Post by itsmylife08 on Jan 6, 2021 19:15:33 GMT 7
guides.dss.gov.au/guide-social-security-law/7/2/2/10 This section of the social security may prove useful to some people depending on how and why they received UP of their pension, I know it has helped me... There is also information on being transferred from DSP TO OAP very interesting good read also. Cheers Itsa
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Post by bear on Jan 6, 2021 19:40:44 GMT 7
That is quite a good read itsmylife08 ....... though as can be seen from the quote, legislation and policy rarely align 100%; shhhh. Unless.it only applies to the terminally ill cohort with a sick play on words. Cheers bear
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Post by ann on Jan 7, 2021 3:21:32 GMT 7
I’m not having success getting this resolved. I know there is a number I can call for International, anyone able to provide that please. Thought they would be useful as it is an international query I realise.
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