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Post by roxane on Jun 21, 2012 10:43:35 GMT 7
grilledsnapper focus on those who really deserve it! And that's not You!
Now for all of you, we have to think, put all ideas together how we will fight them. First of all this legislation hasn't even passed through. So my suggestion is we should form a group and we should write to the politicians not as an individual but as a group. Groups have always more power. It's a little thing, but every little thing counts. Think of what we should write, how to influence them.
*giving up is NOT an option!
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Post by scuzzy on Jun 21, 2012 10:53:58 GMT 7
What I took away from Stomppr's posting (Senate Estimates) was that the Gov know they save money when someone on a benefit (DSP in our case) stays o/s past the portability period (at the moment 13 weeks).
This is because they don't get paid from the day they overstay till the day they come back (as long as they don't overstay long enough to get cancelled).
So, the theory is that if they drop the portability period down to 6 weeks, people will overstay more frequently and for longer periods, hence spend longer periods with their payments suspended, therefore saving the Government more money.
"Senator SIEWERT: Your savings are based on that nearly 51,000 overstays—you are expecting you will get the same?
Mr McBride: That is based on the system as it is now; they are the people who overstay the 13 weeks. The saving is based on an expectation that when it comes down there will still be people who overstay the now six-week provision."
These guys are unbelievable! But there you go. At the end of the day it all boils down to $, screw the ethics of the thing.
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Post by Banjo on Jun 21, 2012 11:00:34 GMT 7
That's amazing, it's all about not paying people their entitlements isn't it?
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Post by roxane on Jun 21, 2012 11:01:11 GMT 7
for short overstay there might be fix. you just need to get a medical certificate that you can't fly. For ex. contagious virus or something like that could do the trick. However it's an extra hassle and might work once or twice, but they probably would get suspicions after a while.
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Post by stomppr on Jun 21, 2012 11:05:59 GMT 7
right on the money scuzzy
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Post by stomppr on Jun 21, 2012 11:47:08 GMT 7
the govt saves money on overstays and also as a secondary gets to boot people off dsp with the unlimited portability rules and saves money by scaring people away from c/link as they wouldnt be able to handle all the claims that would come in for portability ect.
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Post by baranghope on Jun 21, 2012 11:54:29 GMT 7
Clearly with the absurd "2 hour" work capacity JCA barrier, no onshore DSPer, who has not lived on the Australian DSP abroad (doing the old post-2004 13 week runner offshore shuffle) is going to apply for Indefinite Portability unless they are fools. Because as soon as you accept the JCA interview, you are on the Newstart train to be gassed. So we will not apply until they drop the JCA requirement, especially those of us who await the OAP within a few years. Which is what they want us onshore newbies to do, not apply.
BUT REALISE THIS: all the offshore shufflers are having their bets called in, they have to return to Oz within weeks, they have to undergo a JCA to return to their humpies or backyard pools or whatever, their bar-wives and bunnies. They are the ones they are trying to eradicate obviously, because now their lives are over except for 2 choices. Live permanently in Australia and visit the family offshore for 6 weeks a year. Or live like a third world dog offshore. No onshore applicants. Until there is no JCA for us guys onshore forget it all. Go have a holiday. By April 2013, you will hear the dying gasps of the last of the 13 week DSP shufflers. I would put money on this: they will relax the JCA stuff after this initial kill-off. But don't count on it.
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Post by theman on Jun 21, 2012 12:09:47 GMT 7
What exactly is the difference between : Unlimited and Indefinite Portability? With both you can stay overseas as much as you can. Or maybe not!?
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Post by zorro1 on Jun 21, 2012 12:12:46 GMT 7
Clearly with the absurd "2 hour" work capacity JCA barrier, no onshore DSPer, who has not lived on the Australian DSP abroad (doing the old post-2004 13 runner offshore shuffle) is going to apply for Indefinite Portability unless they are fools. Because as soon as you accept the JCA interview, you are on the Newstart train to be gassed. So we will not apply until they drop the JCA requirement, especially those of us who await the OAP within a few years. Which is what they want us onshore newbies to do, not apply. BUT REALISE THIS: all the offshore shufflers are having their bets called in, they have to return to Oz within weeks, they have to undergo a JCA to return to their humpies or backyard pools or whatever, their bar-wives and bunnies. They are the ones they are trying to eradicate obviously, because their lives are over except for 2 choices. Live permanently in Australia and visit the family offshore for 6 weeks a year. Or live like a third world dog offshore. So no poll. No onshore applicants. Until there is no JCA for us guys onshore forget it all. Go have a holiday. A harsh post but you may have nailed it. I have had my head in the sand in the hope that all will be good but the more I read in this great forum the more I lose hope. Its the introduction of the 2 hour rule that makes permanent portability a farce since we would all qualify working 2.1 hours unless you are in an iron lung.
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Post by rowdy on Jun 21, 2012 12:30:25 GMT 7
Clearly with the absurd "2 hour" work capacity JCA barrier, no onshore DSPer, who has not lived on the Australian DSP abroad (doing the old post-2004 13 runner offshore shuffle) is going to apply for Indefinite Portability unless they are fools. Because as soon as you accept the JCA interview, you are on the Newstart train to be gassed. So we will not apply until they drop the JCA requirement, especially those of us who await the OAP within a few years. Which is what they want us onshore newbies to do, not apply. BUT REALISE THIS: all the offshore shufflers are having their bets called in, they have to return to Oz within weeks, they have to undergo a JCA to return to their humpies or backyard pools or whatever, their bar-wives and bunnies. They are the ones they are trying to eradicate obviously, because their lives are over except for 2 choices. Live permanently in Australia and visit the family offshore for 6 weeks a year. Or live like a third world dog offshore. So no poll. No onshore applicants. Until there is no JCA for us guys onshore forget it all. Go have a holiday. A harsh post but you may have nailed it. I have had my head in the sand in the hope that all will be good but the more I read in this great forum the more I lose hope. Its the introduction of the 2 hour rule that makes permanent portability a farce since we would all qualify working 2.1 hours unless you are in an iron lung. This "two hour work rule" will give Centrelink a hell of lot of grief for the following reasons:1. The changes to the legislation make absolutely no mention of "2 hours", but that the DSP'er is unable to do any work, of which work is defined in that section as any work at or over the minumum relevant wage. Therefore this 2 hour work rule is only Centrelink policy, Centrelink's own interpretation of the legislation. Remember policy must follow the law and not be inconsistent with it. To the extent that it is inconsistent it is invalid. 2. If the legislature had intended it to be a "2 hour work" rule, then they could have simply legislated that. They didn't. 3. Not allowing unlimited portability because people dont meet their "2 hour work rule" will result in many applications going to the Social Security Appeals Tribunal. This 2 hour work rule Centrelink is stating is rubbish.
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Post by rowdy on Jun 21, 2012 12:32:15 GMT 7
What exactly is the difference between : Unlimited and Indefinite Portability? With both you can stay overseas as much as you can. Or maybe not!? I think you will find the terms are interchangeable and mean the same thing.
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Post by baranghope on Jun 21, 2012 12:33:37 GMT 7
"Indefinite Portability" (IP) is the proper term. You can basically go and live anywhere you want, but they do ask you which country you plan to live in (as a Vegetable, because only Vegetables are to be granted IP now). They ask because there are Agreement and Non-Agreement countries right. They make money from many Agreement countries, nothing from the others, which is why they no likee. It is all a policy game, but Australia has now broken its legal agreements (in essence) with the Agreement countries because DSP punters in the other countries do not have to undergo "THE VEGETABLE" 2-Hour Work Capacity Test onshore. I would think this might be illegal under international law.
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Post by anotherdsp on Jun 21, 2012 14:17:28 GMT 7
to baranghope,IS the govt calling everyone back to aust to reasses their pension??
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Post by Banjo on Jun 21, 2012 14:22:21 GMT 7
You will be assessed if you apply for the Indefinite Portability, I suppose they will tell you to come in when it suits them and if you're out the country you just ask for a delay.
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Post by spaceyone on Jun 21, 2012 15:14:57 GMT 7
This two hour work rule; will give Centrelink a hell of lot of grief for the following reasons:1. The changes to the legislation make absolutely no mention 2 hours, but that the DSP'er is unable to do any work, of which work is defined in that section as any work at or over the minumum relevant wage. Therefore this 2 hour work rule is only Centrelink policy, Centrelink's own interpretation of the legislation. Remember policy must follow the law and not be inconsistent with it. To the extent that it is inconsistent it is invalid. 2. If the legislature had intended it to be a 2 hour work; rule, then they could have simply legislated that. They didn't. 3. Not allowing unlimited portability because people dont meet their 2 hour work rule; will result in many applications going to the Social Security Appeals Tribunal. This 2 hour work rule Centrelink is stating is rubbish. Ok, it just hit me. This is my theory. You don't quite have to be in an iron lung or coma to get there. What centrelink are trying to do, is to take DSP back to being an invalid's pension. Those in wheelchairs, paralysed, austistic, etc. The people who really cannot work. They will let them have a holiday o/s. For those of us suffering an illness, they are trying to put on the dole. Saying that we can get better, or work around it, but we can work, because we weren't born straight into a wheelchair. Now, this is highly unfair, of course. Because we all know that illness do cause the inability to work, as do the GP's they are trying to silence. I think this is how we must fight it all. That while we were not robbed of a normal life, like those who would qualify for a complete invalid's pension, we do have severe limitations. Pain being one of them, which they are trying to discount. Mental health issues, which they are trying to discount. Deterioration of our condition, leading to loss of quality of life, they are trying to discount. When the name changed from Invalid's pension, in 1992 was it, they opened it up to all sorts of other conditions, and were happy to put people on it, rather than over crowd the employment figures. Now that they want to trim it back down, they can't just throw us all off and pretend that we have been really unemployed all this time. Which means, we need to demand that sickness benefit, or something similar be reinstated. That it be the at the same amount as DSP, since we cannot count on being able to work, or hold down a job. And that it is a payment for people who are not permanently and completely incapacitated, but takes inconsideration that working causes them pain and suffering, and/or to be unemployable. Some people will get well, and go back into the workforce. Some won't. They could bump them up later on, to being 'invalid' status, once they reached a certain age. Just because we are not vegetables, that does not mean we are not ill.
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